We dive into Lily's life as an artist, filmmaker, and dancer, exploring how her world turned upside down when she experienced sudden paralysis. Join us as we discuss surrendering to her body, the discovery of stillness, and the profound impact on her art and relationships. *Original music and sound editing by Leslie Allison *Logo and cover art by Kira Weiss, photography by Kendall Tichner *Produced by Patty Carnevale and Erin Ozmat *All rights reserved in podcast content and the Giving In™ trademark
We dive into Lily's life as an artist, filmmaker, and dancer, exploring how her world turned upside down when she experienced sudden paralysis. Join us as we discuss surrendering to her body, the discovery of stillness, and the profound impact on her art and relationships.
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Patty: Welcome to Giving In. Each episode features an intimate conversation between me, Patty Carnevale , our producer, Erin Ozmat and someone who has gone through a profound experience with surrender. Our guests come from all walks of life, but they're the kind of person you'd feel lucky sitting next to you on a cross country flight. That's how special they are. These stories aren't about giving up, but instead softening the ego and surrendering to the heart, which is really, really hard to do. And that's why we're talking about it.
Patty: Today we're here with Lily Baldwin. Lily is a queer artist, filmmaker, and performer.
In her forthcoming documentary feature, Chronicle of Hip, she sources personal experiences with disability to explore how rampant and destructive ableism is. Chronicle of Hip was on Creative Capital's 2022 shortlist and received a Sundance Institute Interdisciplinary Program Grant supported by the MacArthur Foundation.
Lily is also the creator and host of the podcast Stories of The Stalked a Peabody Award nominated series based on her personal experience being stalked available on Audible. She's also the founder of Stop Stalking Us, a nonprofit that unites people, impacted by the dangerous, often invisible crime of stalking.
We're thrilled to have you here with us, Lily. Thank you. And welcome.
Lily: Thanks for having me.
Patty: So, Lily, what does the concept of surrender or giving in mean to you personally?
Lily: Paper shuffle. so when you first mentioned the word I cringed, And I was like, huh, why am I cringing? And I did a little bit of a deep dive into what it meant because there was something about the word surrender that just felt kind of annoying and weak, and a little new agey, not the word itself, but just my relationship to the word.
And then it just, yeah, I, I felt that association came up around weakness. And so I was like, what does it actually mean?
I, I sort of see surrender as, as like, a process.
It's not a passive choice to surrender.
And that's important to me. It's not about accepting a boundary crossing or violence or letting something just be okay. But it's like, okay, this is what it is and I'm gonna, just be with it and look at it
. I, I do feel like I struggle with n feeling like I might not be doing enough. I'm terrified of wasting time, not doing enough, being enough. You know, this is sort of like my archetypal pitfall inside,
and surrender is, has to absolutely to do with trust, but then at the same time it's like when do you just go with the flow? But when do you also put something in motion and you like maneuver through what's happening? I feel like sometimes we need to resist surrendering for a moment
Patty: Hmm. Mm-hmm. It's like that dance and that relationship between time, which is like the chronological time and, and then time as in like timing, when is it feeling for like right relationship and right timing with certain moments, people, projects things, and it is a dance between those two things.
There's two, the, the Chronos and Kairos, two different Greek words for time. One means like the chronological time, like sunsets at this time we sleep at this time. The other is like right timing.
And that's something that I've really been meditating on a lot lately too, of like how to feel
into both of those things instead of just like living in a Chronos world
Erin: yeah. And, and you said you were like terrified of it, which I just wanna hang onto that cuz that word like, I'm terrified of wasting time. Can you unpack that a little bit? Where, where is that fear coming from?
Lily: This is a really good therapy moment, a lot of my work currently is exploring how to kind of step outside of time, the construct of time, my construct of time, um, and shift it with pacing.
But I think I'm just, yeah, the terrified of. Of, I mean, this is gonna, I'm just gonna go heavy here, but, um, of dying an unlived life
of, Since I was a kid, it's like, what is a full life for me? What is that? What does that mean? And then if I don't, then I think about the moment when I die and what it might be like.
My mom did a lot of work in hospice care when I was, uh, growing up handling the AIDS crisis in Boston.
Erin: Hmm.
Lily: And so I was just very aware of death. I've had to teach myself to, to rest and to stop. And my body kind of mandated that I do that, and it's been a great lesson. I am a little less afraid, um, than I, I used to be for sure.
ACT I - SURRENDER
Patty: I would love for you to take us to a personal moment of surrender. Where are you? How do you feel? What are the felt details of your lived experience in that?
Lily: For me with surrendering, it is about going under something. , initially that's just like being in this ocean where there's no land around me and it's getting dark, and it's like, I, I just have to make that decision to go underwater.
It's, it's a pretty upsetting potentially, but that first moment of surrender is not a relief. It's like, oh my fucking God . Like, am I gonna drown? But then I go , under the water, engulfed in some sort of unknown space.
And then, it's like a whole new easy world underneath a new universe. More breath, . Not what I thought it would be, never is. , but there's this sort of, kind of blissful ease in myself doesn't mean that the situation has changed, but that in me, the landscape is quite different.
Patty: What a vision. That's, that's amazing. I'm like, I'm with you. I'm in the water. I, I'm terrified. And it's like, the only way is into the terror I would love to, to understand like how this relates to this specific experience that you went through in, was it 2017?
Lily: yeah. , 2017, January 6th, I went 80% numb and lost mobility from my waist down within 72 hours, and it was terrifying. I was in LA, I was actually about to premier a project at Sundance that year. So I was really kind of high peak moment for me. This was like in my groove and pushing myself a lot, like really at my edge, I stopped to get a bottle of wine before I went back to my friend's house where I was staying. We were just hanging out on the couch and my legs started to tingle like that tingling when, your legs start to fall asleep.
Erin: Mm-hmm.
Lily: It was uncomfortable and it was like, oh, I kind of ignored it and then it just kept getting more intense and I was like, okay, I gotta get up here. And I, I did this bot ma, which is this like classic ballet move where you kick your leg to the side something I've done for years. And I, I did it and my leg flew in a direction I didn't send it. Started to freak out, didn't know what to do.
Didn't wanna ask for help, ended up at the ER and they did a brain MRI and at this point I was in a wheelchair. Sort of in shock. And they didn't find anything and they just said, look, like basically go home and rest.
Flew back to my hometown. Um, had a bevy of tests. Nobody could figure out what was wrong. It would take me 10 minutes to cross a room. I was very stubborn. , couldn't feel the ground anyhow. I did eventually have a diagnosis. Um, a neurologist found a lesion in my spinal cord and I was diagnosed with transverse myelitis, which is a rare neurological syndrome that very few people have.
And it often happens very quickly where the body shuts down, and , there's no real treatment. Maybe it gets better, maybe it doesn't.
Patty: how, how much time passed since when you were in LA feeling the tingling, the numbing in your legs, to then receiving that diagnosis
Lily: I think it was about, it was about three weeks.
Patty: Wow.
Erin: And Getting a, a sense from your story that your body was doing something, giving into something. And I'm not quite sure if you've, um, taken us to like, when your mind maybe, or your thinking kind of got on board for what was happening. Like when did the, the shock kind of wear off?
Lily: long time. Long time. Nobody knows where this comes from or why it happened, you know?
So I felt a little like, uh, like, am I just making this up? I mean, this is real, you know, it was just like a, a weird fluke thing, you know? So basically I got really angry.
Pushed through it, and then this pain started entering my body and there's like bolts of pain down my left leg, and that was for about a year. I stopped going to doctors cause I wasn't getting any answers.
My neurologist was like, we don't know what this pain is about. . , go see a rehab specialist. The rehab specialist saw me and said your body doesn't remember how to walk, so you need to go see a PT and train yourself to walk. So I did see a PT and she was like, I think the reason you're not standing on that left leg and that clicking sound is actually your bone on your bone.
So I had very, very severe arthritis in my left hip and so I then had a hip replacement and that, um, was very transformative. In removing my pain so that happened.
Patty: oh my gosh,
Wow.
Lily: So the shock didn't really, it could just kind of dissolved the, the shock dissolved. I think when I got diagnosed with , severe arthritis in my hip, I had like a 90 year old hip, you know, and they were like, what the fuck? You were walking on it? And I'm like, ah. But I was told, I mean, I was like a badass dancer and I could name it what my problem was, and I felt more entitled to my pain. And I kind of could surrender more when I had the, the diagnosis that felt like a dramatic solve and something that came from me being a good at what I do.
Does that make sense? I mean, I don't love admitting this, but like I actually needed that to surrender.
Patty: you needed to, to name it, to know what it
Lily: mm-hmm. I had the, the lesion, you know, that transverse myelitis, but that was a fluke, I mean, it's really like this perfect storm of things coming together.
ACT 2 - INTEGRATION
Patty: as a dancer especially, and I mean I'm going, I have to include videos of you dancing in the newsletter cuz amazing. Like the artistry of it, how you move your body is incredible. And I'm so curious about how, your art was impacted by this experience of surrendering to your body in such a total way.
Lily: I mean, it was deep. I was very depressed and got very isolated. Didn't recognize myself, didn't like myself, felt completely irrelevant. Um, terrified. You know, I've always identified as someone who, with my agility, with my dexterity, with my articulateness, like that's how I, I would express myself, my feelings.
So I didn't, I couldn't express myself suddenly, you know, it was just sort of like, who, who am I? Like who am I without this?
Who am I as a woman too, like, I realized how identified I was with and my sexuality and my professionalism around my agile body. But I started to realize that there were other ways to be and express myself
that, I would just be with the pain and lie down and move my body in ways that it could move, you know, that was not virtuosic in the ways I'd known.
And, started to really listen and , in my body there was a lot of pain. Because there was no tissue arthritis in my hip , soft tissue would get stuck in it. And so I just, it was very painful to go from sitting to standing.
Couldn't really laugh so I just sort of became more stoic and still and did a lot of writing. but this sort of, The stillness and the, the, the weird ways of moving and being that I'd never given the time for like those two things, was a huge discovery.
Patty: What did that open up for you? The stillness and then the, the new strange ways of moving strange for you at that time?
Lily: The complete positive of that was a deep level of self-acceptance, and a clarity of focus in the stillness. I just realized how much fear and like jumping forward and predictive and kind of productive overdrive, how that was actually diminishing my own personal integrity and creative process. So, I mean, those are some pretty hefty takeaways. It was not easy. There's a lot of tears, a lot of. Fear, shame, you know? I would like hold up my elbow crutch, like to catch a cab and the cab would drive away, you know, I mean,
I would walk across the street much slower in New York this was before I would use a cane or elbow crutches. This was before the diagnosis of my hip, and people thought I was just being antagonistic, you know, just sort of like slowly taking my time. So it was just this like deep, um, yeah, self care and self listening. That was pretty beautiful. Like real intimacy with myself. I left my relationships. I was, , with a man and a woman actually at the time.
I was in two relationships and wanted to just go solo. And so I did that.
Patty: It sounds like you really like came home to yourself. Were you told in that place of listening that you wanted to be alone? That like you wanted to be alone with yourself apart from these relationships?
Lily: Yeah, I couldn't carry another heart.
Patty: Hmm.
Lily: I didn't know even who I was. I was like, I am losing myself. I gotta batten down the hatches and I can't show up for anybody. You know? , people moved faster and I couldn't keep up and I didn't wanna be with people I couldn't keep up with too.
Erin: Wow.
Patty: Hmm.
Erin: I'm just drawing some connection to where you were sharing, you were so terrified of the wasting of time and then the slowdown that you had to integrate. And I'm wondering if, if that was shocking to you, if there's other surprises that kind of came up in this process and what maybe felt the most new in going through this experience?
Lily: Hmm. I've always like pushed through. I've just been like, I will do it. Like I'm gonna do this. When I was dancing with David Byrne on this world tour, it was a lot. We did like three to five shows a week, 150 shows total a year.
Patty: Wow.
Lily: very big moment in my life. And I showed up and it was hard, you know? I put myself in situations a lot that are new and unknown. I often feel like I don't know what I'm doing, but then I think that's part of my process is, is sort of figuring it out and setting up these, these stakes that feel very intense and, um, big and scary.
But then I'd jump and it's like amazing. And like, I, I would always go, like, If there was something I was scared of doing growing up, I'd always make sure that I did it.
Patty: Hmm.
Lily: I was like, I'm not gonna not do it cuz then I wouldn't. So what I discovered in this was like, I couldn't do that.
I couldn't push, I just couldn't, I waited out. I stayed out. I like, I rested on the sides. Time was moving and I was just still, and I felt very alone. But I also, no one could take that solitude away or that aloneness, you know? It wasn't like I wanted to surround myself with people either.
It was waiting for what to happen, you know? So that's the surrender of this was like, uh, where's my career? Where's my, I mean, sex was just out of the picture. It was fine. I was just like, the energy to have an orgasm is such a privilege. You
was like, I just, got very, very depleted. Yeah.
Erin: Sounds like some of that surprise was that you could be on the bench, so
to speak, and you could watch from the sidelines and that it was gonna be okay, or did it not feel that way?
Lily: I didn't know. I think that the surprises, like I didn't know where it was going, but all I had to do was what I could do.
I mean, pain was like a real prioritizer, you know? , my pain, I don't wanna speak for other people's, but it's just like, all I got is what this is, and it, it was a beautiful practice and being in the present, and it's always easy to talk about that in retrospect when you're not sitting with the kind knife that is pain, you know,
Patty: The kind knife that is pain.
Erin: connecting it back to Buddhism and how pain and suffering is such a teacher in those , practices.
Lily: Right. I remember when I first learned this that, you know, pain is a part of life and then suffering is what you do with the pain.
Patty: Hmm. Where do you feel like you're at in the process now ?
Lily: I'm currently, like I have on a personal level, my functional body, me self, there's that, and then there's me folding that into a creative process and that experience.
Just to let you know, I'm not in that kind of pain anymore, which is amazing. I don't have the dexterity in my left leg the way that I used to, to jump fast, and I don't have the sensation fully.
But I am very agile in many ways and after the hip came back, I was able to move again and glide, and sort of bounce, like bouncing downstairs. Certain things that were so exciting that now I take for granted. So there's a bunch of like real personal triumphs in that, and it's sad not to have the same capacity, but also time has moved on.
I've gotten older and I'm plugging into other areas of my life that feel meaningful. I really do miss dancing more. So I've been actually starting to do more of that and perform again now that I'm not in pain and exploring acting , which is for me, the same way of using my body as a vehicle, but without such intense duress on my system. I can't lift my leg the way I used to. I can't move as fast. My feet don't do that. I know my game and it's just a different game.
Patty: I'm sure you went through a process of mourning what was lost A deep one.
Lily: Yeah.
When I first got my mobility back, according to me what I wanted my mobility to be, I was just so appreciative of everything. And one thing I do wanna say actually to, to anyone, just to say this, is that when I, when I got the diagnosis of having no, cartilage in my hip, I realized how much my body was working for me at all times.
And it wanted,
wanted to be there for me. It just didn't have what it needed. And in that moment I was like, I had so much compassion for myself and my system, me, my body. And it was like, your body wants to be there for you.
Erin: Hmm.
Lily: And for me, that was just like huge. I just wanted to pet myself and be like, oh man, I'm so sorry.
You've been doing
Patty: You've been doing such a good job. You've been doing so great. Yeah. You've been showing up and like it's amazing and yeah. So like a real connection between like soul, body, heart, mind, self.
Can you tell us about Chronicle of Hip?
Lily: Yeah. So One of the things I did when I was, , laying around and in the unknown was documenting it. Like covertly recording doctor's visits and the endless calls with insurance. I would start to walk with my elbow crutches and hold my phone and sort of capture the POV of people engaging me in this state, in public.
There's a different look or different level of engagement when you have like a big cast on your leg and people think, oh, this is, this is an injury, you know, and, I had a, a funky walk. And nothing visibly wrong with me. I felt a different category. I existed in a different space. It was like, oh, is this for, is this a forever thing? That was an interesting, um, shift to be public with my pain, so I'm, I'm working on a feature documentary film, um, Chronicle of Hip that Chronicles, this journey through the perfect storm of illness and pain. Using all of this source footage, verte footage, I've, I've captured, uh, also in conversation with other people who have been in and are in chronic pain, fallen in the gaps of medical diagnosis and or living with disability.
My story could have folded it inside of the, the arc of the heroin's journey.
And for me, that structure has been really helpful. I mean, this shit is hard looking at my stuff. But I, I do feel a real call to action to talk about my experience living as a woman, as a professional woman with pain, with pain publicly. and use my story of kind of, My, my sense of outsiderness with myself, to look at cultures of beauty and who I felt like I needed to be, to be hip. I mean, quite literally the double entendre of Chronicle of Hip is like, who did I think I needed to be and how I actually don't need to be that person, to be taken seriously.
Patty: Something obviously changed and shifted in you and became more expansive, more curious, in this different way of being. And I'm wondering like what outside environmental factors need to change to, to match that or to be more welcoming
Lily: it's a big question, a big important question. It's really ableism 1 0 1, but there needs to be an acceptance of different ways of moving and being and, and pacing.
Patty: Mm-hmm.
Lily: I think that there's a lot of kind of associations around the, the sort of, Diminished slash perceived weak body, especially as a woman, which is my experience. So I think it's about just being open to having patience and time and, and hiring more people and letting them talk and giving them platforms to have their stories and their experiences heard, and putting them in positions of power, just to lead and not be, you know, left, trying to catch up. Or they need to overexplain oneself. It has a lot to do with capitalism and sort of productivity and the systems that are in place right now that kind of hold up our, our culture in many ways.
Patty: Yeah, that kind of keep us imprisoned in this machine of, of productivity and profit and there's so much value and so much compassion and so much contribution that can be made and that like slowing down is vital. It's part of it. It's part of what needs to happen and it really feels like our planet right now is asking for that in so many ways.
Lily: Yeah, absolutely.
ACT 3 - WISDOM
Patty: If you could go back to the moment before you gave in, the fight against it, the denial around what was happening then, like the, the real need and, and search and hunt for a diagnosis and to understand, what would you tell yourself and how would you hold yourself and your body in that moment.
Lily: I think if I could just have heard from someone who I trusted, which hopefully would be me, just that it's gonna be okay. That this is going to take you somewhere you didn't expect, but it is going to be worthwhile.
Erin: Hmm. You needed to hear that from yourself, from someone that you could trust.
Lily: And right now, you need to trust that there's another way to be you
Patty: Mm. Wow. There's another way to be you.
Erin: That sounds like that's different, but not, you're not losing something in that giving in.
Lily: Right, right. I mean, I am losing something to become something else, but ultimately there's no loss.
Erin: Hmm.
Patty: The material is getting reworked in some way. The visual that's coming to mind is you holding your own hand while this one part of you is so terrified, going under the wave but it's gonna be okay. It's like, here we go together.
Erin: Right.
Patty: and then submerging in that.
Erin: Yeah. It's like the metaphor when you, well, when you fight the wave, that's when you get carried out. When you release to it, you come back up.
Lily: Right. You fight it, maybe you get a cramp. It gets, you know, it just, that's sort of this wasted energy that I was thinking. Gripping too hard, I think I was writing a bunch about white knuckling through my experience.
It's just like, uh, I got really mad. Some things I did that I'm don't love that I did. I would really push myself. This was before the pain was totally immobilizing. There was a lot of kind of pushing through and denial and then throwing myself into work.
I developed really crazy ways of working. I was also working on this immersive script inspired by a stalking experience that I've had using fear to become a superhero. And I, I had a literally, I think it was like a 32 foot script. I didn't wanna be on the computer and I could crawl around my apartment. So I just wrote out on one scroll and I spent a lot of time working on that.
Patty: this, It's incredible. The different ways and modalities that you found to still feed the fuel of what you found interesting. You're like, this is interesting to me, so I'm going to figure out a way to, to do it. Yeah.
Lily: yeah, thanks for appreciating that. I I started to realize it needed to lift off the page, the words. So I started writing on the words on paper that I would tape. And then, I mean, it became a whole kind of project. And then I, I sent, I filmed a trajectory moving through the script, the sort of three-dimensional script to one of my producers.
And they were just like, what are you doing? And I, I kind of didn't realize like it was so in it and everything mattered so much and they were just like, like, girl, you need to write this out. Like, I was like, it was just, it was a, it was a trip.
I then went to, like, what more can you take from me? And so I had a lot, I had like unprotected sex. Um, I did like, like a dirty bathroom fuck with someone that was gonna hire, like I did stuff that I was just like, stuff I would never have done. Um, someone that wanted to hire me, you know, it was like really not smart stuff.
Like my relationship to my sexuality and still feeling viable, meant not having boundaries somehow or doing things that I would otherwise not have done or had never done or never dared myself to do. And I was like, if I'm going out, if I'm going down, like I wanna try this, I wanna be careless right now.
Patty: In that process, it sounds like you were testing a lot and also sort of like you wanted to leave it all out there, but then also testing like, how much do you have to, to be taken, you know? It's a exploration of, of worth almost.
Lily: I mean, I kind of just became a bit of like an icy bitch with myself.
Patty: Just to try it on?
Lily: Yeah, I mean, this is before the surrender, right? The other side of it ended up being a lot of tenderness actually, and stillness. This family friend was a naturopath and had a patient who had cancer and gone down to study and do some plant medicine in the Amazon. I went down to Ecuador and spent two and a half weeks living with the Sápara people.
And that was an interesting journey, but definitely started me turning the page
on yeah, my relationship to my body. It didn't take the pain away, but it changed my relationship to what was there, which is what I was looking for.
Patty: Are you comfortable sharing what kind of plant medicine you participated in?
Lily: Yeah, it was a yahuasca, Yana, which this one grandma made on the land we were on. There was other medicine that I don't know exactly. I would sort of drink jugs of this, uh, liquid, dark liquid in a jug. And then there was some kind of initial tobacco cleansing and stuff like that and being wrapped in these sort of intense steam situations.
Patty: It sounds like you were so committed to reconnecting with yourself and following, I guess, your instincts on what can work and where you can find some peace and connection.
Lily: I was desperate. I was raw. I was wanting, I was ready. And I think there's many ways to do that. I do have a, a very different personal practice now. I feel like things were opened in me that were great and that I have other ways of opening now, like it open channels that I can access in other ways right now.
Patty: I would love to hear more about that. What are like the kind of practices and rituals you do now to listen to the wisdom of your body?
Lily: Mantras, chanting, a lot of breathing, a lot of breath work, um, and yoga, various modalities. I actually started to work with Kundalini yoga. My usual yoga was like really a sort of athletic, you know, it was like arm balance and inversion. And I started practicing Kundalini cuz I basically didn't have to go anywhere and I felt like I was flying in my body and I would feel tired, like I just moved a bunch.
energy systems, my kind of glandular system, my breathing, I started to feel very alive in a different kind of way. So it was pretty profound and I've continued that and that series of, you know, working with within that system has been very meaningful for me. Um, and sound. Yeah.
Patty: Sound like, like sound baths or like singing bowls, things like that.
Lily: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, gongs and, um, my own chanting, like my own voice. Like having a mantra, like hearing myself. And then I also do PT, my left leg does not work the same as my right. So I still have a, a very physical practice around that. And then there's diet stuff around inflammation in my body.
I've done the best I can be to be perfect, and that was not good. Like, I, it just was some sort of like anal tight existence . So for me it is about balance and enjoying the pleasures of life in moderation.
Patty: There's so much wisdom in that of the, you know, it's a ca it can be a cage of trying to do everything right and perfect doesn't exist. And then it's at the expense of like the true presence of being with what is.
I'd be curious about if your friends, family, loved ones would say that they noticed a difference in you coming through this experience and in how you are and your being.
Lily: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean I think the general perception was more relaxed, um, gentler. Maybe more thoughtful, just more available. Before I didn't have time for a lot other than a couple things that were very important to me. And that was my choice. I mean, I chose to live a life where I could do that. I, what was important to me to just be on my mission and not have to, you know, I didn't have a child.
Not having to care, take too many people. I, I set it up in a way where I, you know, was, was able to just devote myself to my mission.
Patty: What is your, your mission?
Lily: Simply put my mission is to wake people up.
I can't make anyone wake up. That's the thing. But to create environments , or scenarios or situations that invite that, that support that. Whether that's waking up to themselves to a new perspective on something, to a convention some sort of element of disorientation.
Something that's perhaps a little jarring, whether it's a story, a texture, or something that repositions one, in a new space.
Erin: When people wake up with your work, what do you hope that they find?
Lily: More interest, more acceptance of themselves and therefore of others. That means seeing, clearly listening clearly, more honesty.
I do feel like when we are in a more intimate, curious, committed relationship to ourselves, that that is a way to change the world.
Often it's sort of waking oneself up to our own assumptions
about what is or who we are or who we need to be or, um, yeah.
Erin: Those assumptions are what keep us locked into the way things are. If things need to change, the assumptions need to be questioned first.
Patty: Thank you for committing yourself to such an important mission for
Lily: Hmm. You guys are really making me feel very, , I don't know, just heard and, respectful space you're creating here on this call. So, thanks.
Erin: hmm.
You mentioned, , Lily, you're in Berlin. You're working on Chronicle of Hip, but there's maybe some future projects. talk about what else you're working on, and, and kind of what it means to you and what you want people to know about it.
Lily: Mm-hmm. Thank you. I am working on this feature film and I'm doing, um, a residency in Berlin at Globe.
That's my best at pronouncing that. I'm gonna only say it once, like catch me if you can. I'm basically working with projections and still images, creating a bit of a, a collection of visuals in the fine art space tangentially as I work on the feature, which has been helping me kind of dive into the material.
So technically I am a restorative cyborg, which is, um something I've been really interested in this concept of cyborg. And really, appropriating the pop aesthetics of the cyborg using depictions of the compensated body.
Um, to, to, create images that defy easy categorization, um, and kind of hijack ableist cultures.
So I've been playing with depictions of my x-rays of my spine and my, prosthesis and using them to create a, a heroic body and using the cyborg as, kind of a metaphor for inclusivity. I think right now there's a lot of questions around what it even means to be human with all of our AI generated work and robots.
And so this idea of, Am I more than a human? Am I less than a human? What is it to be a human? And so for me, I'm really just kind of climbing inside of, inside of that
Erin: Hmm.
Lily: Um, so that's Chronicle of Hip, which is big, big kind of heavy stuff that I'm in right now. I am also working on season two of Stories of the Stalked, the podcast that, I released last year. And that has been a meaningful process reaching out to other individuals with stalking experiences and wanting to, to really put that in a more forward place culturally in terms of the conversations we're having and also to kind of crack open true crime genre.
It's an interesting genre to kind of unpack and do it consciously.
Patty: Yeah. And Stories of the Stalked was just nominated for a Peabody Award,
right. Congratulations.
Erin: Yeah. Congratulations.
Patty: Yeah. Wow. it's so, it's so important.
Lily: Yeah, I feel incredibly honored and grateful and, you know, it was definitely putting a lot out there personally, but also it was a unique project. Like the way, the way it came together was a real genre bender. So
it's always nice for that to feel recognized and really hopefully just get more, more eyes on the topic and more ears in the space to, so we can change the conversation around stalking.
The nonprofit continues. We're starting to gather more stories, and build a community and build out the infrastructure so we can raise more money to provide more support. But always really focusing ourselves as an online resource for people and staying abreast internationally with resources that we can provide for victims. We're also looking at creating a community hub that will have local managers where people can safely, which is a, a key aspect of this, join the community and be in conversations with others.
And then I am working on a feature film, working title is Profane. It's a contemporary thriller, exploring the kind of mythic character lilith, she appears in many scriptures and myths in the Bible. is. The woman who was written out of the Bible, as the first woman before Eve who did not obey Adam's desires and God banished her and she kind of became, a dark hated heretic demon and was sort of used by the patriarchy to, to be an example of what not to be and was vilified for her outspoken heretical ways. I've gone deep into the kind of the, the Lilith story, but building out a contemporary character, and it's mythic in nature, but sort of a, a juicy, fast-paced thriller that ends up becoming kind of a, a magical, real scenario.
Patty: I can't wait to see that.
Erin: So exciting.
Patty: It'll take as long as it takes cuz we gotta that.
Lily: Okay.
Patty: see that
Lily: I know.
It's just, it's, and it's sort of deep in my, in my heart here to, to kind of wanna talk about what does it mean to be the woman who doesn't fit, and how culturally we're still, um, behind on that front.
Patty: Yeah, and how we've internalized just breathing this air and being in this culture. We've internalized the poison of patriarchy so often and then like what does that do to us as women?
ACT 4 - FINAL QUESTIONS
Patty: So, rapid fire questions. The universe is calling you pick up. What does it say to you?
Lily: You are right where you need to be. You don't have to work so hard. Keep throwing yourself into the fire and you will come out the Phoenix.
Erin: Woo.
Patty: Yes. Oh my gosh.
Erin: That's gonna be hard to follow .
Lily: I don't know. I'm getting a little slogany with this, but, you know, I don't know quite where this is gonna land.
Patty: That's great. Sounds like a prayer to me. I love it. Um, okay, so one thing that you are grateful for today.
Lily: One that I have water to drink that's clean,
Erin: Hmm
Lily: and the other that I get to hang out with smart women asking, really good, important questions. I'm really happy to be here and you're both incredibly smart and committed to stuff that just makes me feel less alone in my mission.
Erin: Hmm.
Patty: That's an honor. Thank you for reflecting that. What's one synchronicity that's coming up for you? It can be totally weird too, and not make sense as they, they often don't until much later.
Lily: Okay. It just that randomly is like the topic of dreams. I just came from this artist talk and three or four other people are working actively with their, their dreams that inform their creative practice. And I've been thinking a lot about my dreams, always wanting to write my dreams down when I wake up and never doing it.
I just keep hearing people that are talking about how they have a dream journal and the dream dreams, dreams, dreams. So dreams are appearing
Patty: We love dreams on this podcast.
Erin: Oh yeah. We love
it.
Patty: we do. we
Lily: Oh, and then the moon. Oh, I've been really, oh yeah. Just talking about how I love it, how like your, your, uh, menstruation cycle syncs with the moon, and that's been coming up.
So Moon and Dreams and, and Blood.
Patty: Dreams and Blood. That's gonna be the title , giving Into the Moon, dreams and Blood.
Lily: Take it.
Erin: yeah, and let's just tie it back to the ocean too. We were talking about that
it's
Lily: yeah.
Erin: coming together.
Lily: It is one big pulsation,
Patty: Yeah.
What's a book or a show that you've really loved recently that you'd like to recommend people?
Lily: In the middle of Octavia Butler's Lilith brood.
Patty: I swear to God, I swear to God, Lily, when you brought up the Lilith, I was like, I wonder if you, I wonder if you've read Lilith Brood. Okay, fantastic. Can't wait for everyone to read this. Yep.
Lily: So good. So good. She's just brilliant and I've been wanting to, um, Ursula K. Wait, what's Ursula? K la Ursula Le Guin or is it Ursula Le Guin.
Yeah. she keeps appearing, like a conversation someone will bring her up. Um, going back to the serendipity thing,
Erin: Hmm.
Patty: Yes. Okay. Octavia and Ursula are both very important, and prophetic. Cool. And something that you're really excited to eat.
Lily: I I have so many, I wanna say the right one.
Patty: You can say, you can say a few.
We don't need to limit the, it can be a meal, it can be a feast.
Lily: Okay. Super into just Indian food right now. Really good dahl. Um, and saag paneer. and,
this really excited about this chocolate gelato that I've seen somebody eat nearby at this place and then I think just there's like a general, just sort of olive oil, garlic bread, dipping feast that's sort of just sort of like a lot of sauce and dippage
Patty: Yum. Yes. Love a dip. Thank you for sharing
Lily: Yeah, like a double dip, not just a dip.
Patty: Yeah. Many, many dips. The meal is basically the dip and the the the vehicle is important too, but the dip is the main thing. Love that. Thank you for sharing.
Lily: Yeah.
Patty: Okay. Is there anything that we didn't ask you that you feel is like on your heart that you wanted to talk about?
Lily: Thanks. I think just the importance of listening in this sort of bridging the difference between different forms of mobility and pacing, you know, whatever that is, um, to kind of de-abilize us. And that only, you know what listening is.
It's like I can't tell you how to listen, but you are the only one. Just like you can only make. What you can make creatively. Your voice is only your voice. No one else can have your voice, and they just can't. It's like impossible. It's the same thing with listening and you know what it means to listen and to, and I mean listening by, like being with something and not thinking about something else, or not thinking about what you wanna say, but like to really drop into just being with what is happening without judgment or assessment, like, but just , holding that space. And then from that space the next step will reveal.
Patty: I really feel the trust that is necessary for that.
This idea that one thing leads to another and we map it out first, then we follow this plan , I mean, a plan can be great, but then it's like how do you give into the present moment and then be with what arises, that you can be flexible enough to then move with the next most graceful whatever it might be, step, but you'll miss it if you're too fixated on
Lily: Hmm. Totally.
Patty: Hmm.
Lily: And if maybe you miss it, it's also not the end of the world, you know? And the other thing is just that in this idea of surrendering, I really think it's something that happens only with you.
It's not a public display. It can be shared, but it doesn't need to be shared. This is just like surrendering is about you and your universe and only you are the nexus of that surrender. And sure, I mean, people can see you surrendering, you know, it's, but this moment of like going under or going into or relinquishing the, the white knuckles of or something, I would just say it's cool to be alone.
It's cool to be alone with it.
Um, And, and that's the meat of it, I think actually is, uh, go, go deep and don't be afraid to be alone.
Patty: Wow. you so much.
Erin: Thank you LIly.
Lily: Thank you for literally listening and giving me the opportunity to help figure out some of my thoughts around all of this is. I never really thought much about this topic.
Um, it's been very cool.
Erin: Thank you.
Thank you for helping us really figure it out too. That's part of this journey is we don't actually know either.
Patty: we don't know.
Erin: We're figuring it out with our, with our friends.
Patty: yeah. And your story gives us permission to keep asking questions about it and feeling into it.
(OUTRO WITH LILY)
Patty: thank you so much Lily, for sharing your story on giving into going under and reliving that submergence and emergence with us. It's, it's truly an honor. Thank you.
Lily: Thank you so much. It has really been such a pleasure, both of you. I'm excited about what you're doing and building and can't wait for what's next.
Erin: Same for you. We'll be looking out for all your amazing work.
Patty: Yes. Can't wait. I mean, I will wait. Can't wait.
Erin: We
Lily: Okay.
Erin: but be
Lily: Surrender to the waiting.
Patty: Yes, we're ready when it's ready.
Patty: Thank you for listening. If you loved it and want to help us do more of these episodes, please follow and rate Giving In on your podcast platform of choice . And sign up for our substack!. We'll have a newsletter letting you know of the new episodes coming out and all kinds of fun treats at givingin.substack.com. Once you're subscriber, you can also email us at givingin@substack.com.
Giving In is produced by me, Patty Carnevale, and our producer Erin Ozmat. Logo and cover art is designed by Kira Weiss, original music and sound editing is by Leslie Alison.
Until next time.